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Casus belli

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How can "FLN terrorism in French Algeria" be a cause for the 'Algerian War of Independence'? If anything it would a tactic within that war. Surely the cause is the French colonial rule.

photo of first press conference...

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Can someone remove this photo? It has nothing to do with the Algerian war but represents nowadays Corsican independentists, FLNC meaning "front de liberation nationale de la Corse"

The starting date of this event is incorrect.

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". The most notable manifestation of the new urban campaign was the Battle of Algiers, which began on September 30, 1956, when three women placed bombs at three sites including the downtown office of Air France."

Dear friends,

The events that generally constitute the Battle happened in 1957, not 1956. Although the date above for the bombings is apparently correct, (The quote seems to be from the LOC country study on Algeria.) The Battle for Algiers began On January 28, 1957 following the national strike.

Specifica dates of interest:

28 January: General strike begins in Algiers which is broken by the paras. 5 March: Larbi Ben M'hidi, FLN leader captured on 25 February, dies in custody. 21 May: Fall of the Mollet government. 29 May: An FLN commando unit massacres all the men in the village of Melouza who belong to the rival MNA. 12 September: Resignation of Paul Teitgen, secretary general for the police in Algiers, who protests at the torture methods used by the paras. 24 September: Head of the Algiers FLN, Yacef Saadi, is arrested in the Casbah.

The Battle of Algiers ends.

French Troops Clash With Algerian Civilians

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This picture should be removed. It's a scene from Gillo Pontecorvo's "Battle of Algiers", not a real photo. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22838-2003Sep3.html

References

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The title "Algerian War"

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Calling it Algerian war sounds a little biased. The war was a war of independence against a colonial power. I would suggest changing it because it sounds like a French nationalist picked this title. Previously it used to be called Algerian War of Independence on Wikipedia until someone changed it. Ahm1453 (talk) 20:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result changes

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Discussion started by a bock evading sock. M.Bitton (talk) 13:40, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I am sure that this war resulted in a French military victory.

Previously I did not know about the "Plan Challe" or "Challe Plan", but after reading the page linked (it can be found on Simple Wikipedia) I can conclude that the resulted in a French military victory. The referendum that came after resulted in Algeria's independence. So this should be a political victory for the Algerians, but a military victory for the French, as most of the FLN leaders fled to other countries, and soldiers were liquidated after the Challe plan.

This is similar to the Greek-Bulgarian crisis of 1925. Greece, before being forced to pull out of Bulgaria, was occupying some of it. This would be defined as a Greek "success", in my opinion, as before the end of the war, they were occupying land, much like how the French soldiers, before the referendum, were occupying Algeria. So much like how Bulgaria had a diplomatic victory in said conflict, but was not winning militarily, I think that it should be the same here as well, in the sense that Algeria lost military wise but won politically, as it gained its independence.

My proposition:

Result: 1962 Evian Accords Referendum

• French military victory

• Algerian political victory Frenchman1953 (talk) 18:35, 12 February 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 13:40, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It resulted in the French defeat and that's that. France didn't achieve a thing and if you want, I can cite RS that say that it was defeated both militarily and diplomatically (these and other RS that describe the military outcome as "stalemate" can be seen in the article's history). In any case, the infobox reflects what the RS say about the result and I see no reason to rediscuss it ad nauseam. M.Bitton (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
> " France didn't achieve a thing"
I stated that, before the referendum, France had conducted the Challe Plan. This plan resulted in an indisputable victory for France, as it was the last operation of the war and was marked with the destruction of the FLN as a fighting force. I think that this cannot be viewed as some sort of "military defeat" or "stalemate", because as quoted in the page of the Algerian War on Wikipedia itself:
"The French Army shifted its tactics at the end of 1958 from dependence on quadrillage to the use of mobile forces deployed on massive search-and-destroy missions against FLN strongholds. In 1959, Salan's successor, General Maurice Challe, appeared to have suppressed major rebel resistance,..."
So this is nonetheless seen as a military victory for France, no matter how any government or source can put it. Hence, nothing can change the fact that France did end most of the fighting in this war with a major operational success. Frenchman1953 (talk) 20:49, 12 February 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 13:40, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Militarily the French won, but the Algerians acheived all their aims, so it was ultimately an Algerian victory. Given the complexity it is probably preferable to say See Aftermath Mztourist (talk) 03:08, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing remotely complicated about the fact that the FLN won the war and no reason whatsoever to even dispute what is backed by a raft of RS and basic common sense. The same principle applies to similar articles, such as the Vietnam war (which is often compared to it). M.Bitton (talk) 03:32, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's a poor analogy. The North Vietnamese won the war militarily. The French won the Algerian war militarily, utterly defeating the FLN/ALN, however DeGaulle recognized that continued French control was untenable and gave the FLN all of its war aims. Mztourist (talk) 03:36, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's the analogy of the RS (not even needed given that the RS are unanimous in the fact that France lost the war, so badly in fact, it had to erase it from its collective memory). They aliened the very people whose hearts they were supposed to win (by putting them in concentration camps), begged for a ceasefire and accepted every FLN's demand. M.Bitton (talk) 03:39, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it was a military stalemate, the FLN didn't beat the French and the French couldn't eradicate the FLN is what you wrote. What has changed since? M.Bitton (talk) 04:07, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What RS is there that "France lost the war, so badly in fact, it had to erase it from its collective memory" or that France "begged for a ceasefire"? Mztourist (talk) 05:01, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it was a military stalemate, the FLN didn't beat the French and the French couldn't eradicate the FLN... the Algerians acheived all their aims, so it was ultimately an Algerian victory. these are your own words, therefore, I don't need to convince you. M.Bitton (talk) 23:00, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So you're just evading answering my questions then. There are no RS that "France lost the war, so badly in fact, it had to erase it from its collective memory" or that France "begged for a ceasefire". Mztourist (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This is another good solution. But calling it an "Algerian victory" is a stretch. Frenchman1953 (talk) 05:43, 13 February 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 13:40, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Algerian victory is an undisputed fact. What you think of it is neither here nor there. M.Bitton (talk) 23:00, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The FLN achieved its war aims through negotiations, it did not "win" the war in any common understanding of that concept. Mztourist (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Algerians did not gain their "victory" until after the war. The referendum was signed after the war had ended, so the results from after the war cannot be attributed to the war itself. The French defeated the FLN; Gaulle had to negotiate with them, and then their independence was declared.The result of the war itself was a French victory, and using a wider definition of "result", it can be defined as an Algerian victory. Frenchman1953 (talk) 07:41, 14 February 2025 (UTC) Blocked sock. M.Bitton (talk) 13:40, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very funny. Anyway, the scholarly sources are unanimous, I see no point in wasting valuable time entertaining some editors' POV. M.Bitton (talk) 11:28, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Which scholarly sources unanimously say this was an Algerian victory? Mztourist (talk) 03:24, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
acthely its an algerian wins the last battle in this war its battle of boukhil
so algeria win in politic and military paower 105.98.84.200 (talk) 22:15, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Result

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@Mztourist would you please stop messing with the infobox ? The Algerian victory is well sourced in the lede. You need to provide RS that claim the Algerian did not win the war and get a consensus. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:28, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Nourerrahmane please read Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters under Result which states:
"this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result. Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." As the war did not end in an Algerian military victory, but rather a negotiated ceasefire and French withdrawal, referring to the End of the war section is appropriate here. Mztourist (talk) 13:07, 8 March 2025 (UTC) The lede says nothing about an Algerian victory. Mztourist (talk) 13:08, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That makes it Algerian victory per sources. Don't care if all FLN members were dead or the French got out with 0 casualties. War was faught for political independence and this was won by the Algerian per sources. Nothing Ambiguous here. Next time try to reach a consensus before making abusive reverts. Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:14, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing about Algerian victory in the lede ? Please check again. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:17, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I am well aware of the history of the war, there was no Algerian military victory, like for example WWII or the Vietnam War. As the MOS states above "In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section")." which is what I have done. You can cut it with the personal attacks too. Mztourist (talk) 14:03, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please stick to what reliable sources say, do not disrupt the article, reach a consensus before making modifications and finally assume good faith. Best. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:18, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane this issue was discussed in 2017: Talk:Algerian War/Archive 4#RfC about the result parameter in the Infobox, where there was "a clear consensus opposing a change to FLN victory". I am restoring that consensus in the Infobox. You are welcome to start a new RFC if you wish. Mztourist (talk) 05:05, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is about summarising what reliable sources say. Your edit warring is not going to help your cause. I would suggest you refrain from behaving tendentiously since the Algerian side clearly won the war and the RS are explicit about this fact. An 8 years old consensus that didn’t examine these present sources in the current article status has no relevance. Speaking of consensus and based on recent edits. You already have 3 users against your claim. Nourerrahmane (talk) 07:25, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also this is not about “FLN victory” but “Algerian victory” mind you. Best. Nourerrahmane (talk) 07:33, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As you well know, in this context, "FLN victory" is the same as "Algerian victory". If anyone is "behaving tendentiously" it is you. What RS state that it was an Algerian victory? What "present sources" are you referring to that change the 2017 consensus? Mztourist (talk) 09:17, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to repeat my previous comments, so if you can stop bludgeoning that would be great.
@Skitash @R Prazeres sorry to bother you with this, but do the sources present in the lede seem unclear to you about the Algerian victory in this war ? Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane no bludgeoning by me, but your notification to Skitash and R Prazeres is blatant Wikipedia:Canvassing. Mztourist (talk) 03:30, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also you didn't respond to my questions: What RS state that it was an Algerian victory? What "present sources" are you referring to that change the 2017 consensus? Mztourist (talk) 03:34, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The lede does make it clear that Algeria won its independence and thwarted France's political objective of holding on to the country, regardless of winning it "militarily" or not (which doesn't mean anything in a war of national liberation). Skitash (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to imagine how a war started over Algerian independence, and whose immediate result was Algerian independence, cannot be summarized as an Algerian victory. The very first citation does indeed explicitly spell out whose "victory" it was, and it's not that hard to find other sources stating the same ([1], [2], [3]). Attempts to split "military" and "political" victories are precisely what the template guidelines discourage and precisely what Mztourist's argument seems to be based on.
Mztourist is clearly aware that their proposal does not enjoy consensus, even as far back as the 2017 RfC, so the edit-warring that occurred should be obviously unacceptable. If they want to revisit consensus, they should request a new RfC. R Prazeres (talk) 17:35, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Only one of the sources you provided (Stora) refers to Algerian victory, the others reflect the complicated factors that brought the war to an end. Mztourist (talk) 03:37, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Read again. All three refer to an Algerian victory or to a French defeat. If you want to ignore these examples, then at this point it doesn't matter: there are already citations in the article to this effect. Your comment further below also makes no sense in response to my comment above. I've given you a recommendation if you want to actually pursue this point; otherwise, it's time to drop the stick. R Prazeres (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Which page of each of the first 2 sources states "Algerian victory"? I have opened the new RfC. Mztourist (talk) 04:02, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While there was no consensus to change the outcome, the result that was retained was "military stalemate" and "FLN political victory" (which were removed in July 2024). Furthermore, that earlier RfC failed to consider all the provided RS substantiating the fact that it was an Algerian victory. Claiming to "restore consensus" while injecting your POV is disingenuous. Skitash (talk) 12:52, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Skitash and R Prazeres you are both ignoring Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters above. Skitash, its amusing that you are adopting the exact opposite position to what you are arguing at Talk:Battle of Algiers (1956–1957)#9 March 2025. Mztourist (talk) 03:33, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on result in Infobox

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{{rfc|hist}} Should the result in the Infobox state:

Mztourist (talk) 03:54, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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  • Option 2 Algerian victory is too simplistic, when the result was far more nuanced. There was no Algerian military victory. This wasn't Berlin 1945 or Saigon 1975. The French had won the war militarily by 1959, but De Gaulle realised the situation was unsustainable in the long term, leading to the referenda, negotiations and finally the Evian Accords, this is all reflected in the End of the War section. Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters under Result applies here: "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result. Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." In the previous RfC in 2017: Talk:Algerian War/Archive 4#RfC about the result parameter in the Infobox there was "a clear consensus opposing a change to FLN victory". Mztourist (talk) 03:54, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 1: Algerian victory, the liberation war was more than a military event and the result was that the French were kicked out. Keith-264 (talk) 09:21, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 1: Algerian victory. As the article states, the Algerian liberation war was never ment to overcome an overwhelming French army. It was about acheiving the main political objective of the war which is driving the French off Algerian soil and the bringing French Algeria to an end using different means (military, political, social..). This was acheived, so it's an Algerian victory Per 4 RS in the lede and the infobox. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:11, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 1: Algerian victory, I totally agree with @Keith-264 comments. More than a military event, the main objective was to gain independence from the French. The Algerians succeeded so it is an Algerian victory, nothing else.Descartes16 (talk) 12:54, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If, as has been stated by supporters of Option 1, this was "more than a military event," is it proper to use Infobox Military Conflict at all? It seems to be 'wired' for specific results, and while the FLN did achieve their goals at the end of the day it certainly wasn't through the use of military force. There doesn't seem to be any capability to add 'Political Victory,' for example. Intothatdarkness 15:37, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi; The FLN (ALN) did use military force, It's still a military conflict. However, the goal was not to destroy the military capabilities of your oponent as much as to push your opponent to negotiate. I would quote Historian Jamil Abun Nasr :"after June 1958 the A.L.N. command abandoned the practice of using battalion-sized formations in engagements with the French army, and reverted to the guerrilla tactics of the first year of the revolution. The battalions were broken up into companies using hit-and-run tactics and avoiding positional battles. This meant that the A.L.N. no longer aimed at a military Dien Bien Phu, but at providing the foundations of a political victory by the threat of an indefinite continuation of the fighting." (Abun Nasr, A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic period (1987) pp 348)) Nourerrahmane (talk) 15:51, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course they used military force. But they did not defeat the French militarily. That's my point. Intothatdarkness 16:53, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you. However they still won the war per many cited RS, and this is what the infobox is about. Therefore I can't agree with Mztourist when he describes spelling Algerian/FLN victory or French defeat per RS as "too simplistic", Also The French did not win Militarly as this would imply that they did won the War through military means. The FLN lost the battle of Algiers and switched to more hit and run tactics but nowhere this should be understood asamilitary defeat. Military successes are not a fundamental requirement in these kind of wars. The Vietnam war is also a good example. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually South Vietnam WAS defeated militarily. US involvement ended for different reasons, but 1975 was a clear, crushing military victory for the North. I happen to agree that the infobox used in this instance is too simplistic, but there doesn't appear to be any option. Intothatdarkness 18:01, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    the U.S withdrew due to the public pressure which was a direct result of a prolonged guerilla warefare engaged by the north. And this is what those wars are about and which seems that you and Mr Mztourist miss the point. I suggest you read my recent addition in this article. Speaking of the infobox it showcases the outcome of the war per RS. Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:41, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you miss the point when it comes to Vietnam. The conflict itself ended in 1975, not when the US pulled out its troops. But that's not the point of this discussion. One of the biggest problems with Wikipedia infoboxes is they don't handle nuance very well, and your argument is a perfect example of this. The French were not defeated in a military sense, but they did eventually end their presence in Algeria. Not because they lost militarily, but because the French government decided to cut their losses. I'm more in favor of Option 2 at this point, but I'm sure everything will be simplified to Option 1. Carry on. Intothatdarkness 18:49, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It was just an example that showcased the point of doing guerilla warfare that actually provoked a chain of events that caused the military victory of the North. Speaking of the Algerian war, cutting loses, suffering public pressure and the collapse of an entire republic, dealing with international condemnations and risking a coup and a civil war is not directly related to military engagements. However they make the whole point of the war engaged by the FLN in the first place. Direct Military engagements are not the whole story of this war. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:01, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I do respect your opinion though and I enjoyed this vietnam comparison debate. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Algeria was totally different from the Vietnam War, which ended with a clear military victory, as I stated in my comment. Mztourist (talk) 06:49, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • The infobox isn't perfect and I don't know of a better one. Quite a lot of liberation struggles in the military, diplomatic, Cold War, economic and others dimensions were like this but as a short cut, the FLN fought and won. Keith-264 (talk) 16:01, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 1: I don't see how a war launched to win Algerian independence and ended with Algeria gaining independence would not be considered an outright Algerian triumph. The vast majority of reliable sources can confirm this.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][12][16][17][18] Skitash (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think this list supports "Algerian victory". It's fairly clear that France lost; that a majority of sources say. But that alone is not enough to determine who won. Was it an internationally recognized Algerian government? Was it an armed group that called itself "Algeria"? Of the sources you provided, I counted five that attribute the victory to "Algeria" or "Algerians" and seven to the FLN. This is a significant difference since even the info box labels three different armed groups in Algeria, not just one. It seems that this was a uniquely FLN victory as the MNA, while also working for Algerian Independence, also fought against the FLN and lost. In fact, an outcome result of "Algerian victory" would lead to the rather bizarre result; a faction which is not even listed as a participant somehow won!
    As such, a third option, such as, FLN victory, should be used instead of Algerian Victory (note though that this is not a vote, nor do I intend to vote.) HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 06:07, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The FLN had a political branch called the provisional government of the Algerian republic or (GPRA) which played a crucial role in getting the Algerian war of independence to the international stage and has scored diplomatic victories over the French in the UN.
    Regarding “Algerian” as a geopolitical affiliation, it has been around since the 16th century’s Regency of Algiers. The FLN proclamation of 1 November 1954 stressed that the goal of this war was to restore Algerian sovereignty as it had been prior to 1830 (date of the French invasion). Nourerrahmane (talk) 07:19, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That is better but still not what the sources cited above say; they do not attribute this victory to the Republic of Algeria but rather the FLN. Otherwise the sources would simply have said "Republic of Algeria". Do you have sources which explicitly attribute the victory to "Republic of Algeria" or any equivalent name for this organization (as opposed to a victory for the FLN or a more vague "Algerians"). This brings up a larger problem though, that calling a result of "Algerian Victory" would imply that the MNA also won, which is simply not true. The MNA was also made up of Algerians yet they lost their political struggle to the FLN. As such, this was a victory does not apply to all those who were recognized as Algerian.
    As for the other claims, the same problem applies. The FLN can claim that its goal was to restore Algerian sovereignty. This does mean that the FLN equates to Algeria though, since there were other groups fighting for Algeria but also opposing the FLN. If France having lost is accepted as fact, the problem still remains of who won. As said before, having the outcome box name a participant which is not even named in the infobox is a problem. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 07:41, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Correction: This does not mean that the FLN equates to Algeria though. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 07:42, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Wouldn’t be enough that both affiliated themselves to Algeria and that the MNA, despite being a political rival to the FLN, still takes a share in this victory against the French ? The MNA founder was Messali Hadj…Considered the Father of Algerian nationalism by the FLN whose members were part of this Independentist movement (North African start) prior to the war. Algerian victory is good way not to disregard the MNA as you stated. Speaking of RS, a good number stress that the “Algerians” won their independence. Nourerrahmane (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it would not. I would need sources that consider the MNA to also be a victor in this conflict. From what I see, they lost to the FLN. Going back once more to the sources above, a majority attribute this victory solely to the FLN, not an FLN-MPA coalition or something along these lines. I pointed out that, at least among the sources provided above, "Algerian victory" is in the minority. Since it is in the minority and since the infobox does not include "Algeria" or "Algerian" as a belligerent, "Algerian victory" should not be the result of this war. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if more sources were brought though, this still would leave by doubts on how "Algerian" this victory was. Without a doubt the primary group that won this conflict was Algerian. I question if they speak for most Algerians or if they were simply the most effective armed group that resisted French forces. I already mentioned the MNA but a question is also to be had if this organization represented Berber interests too or it if unilaterally spoke on their behalf without meaningfully engaging with Berbers grievances. These issues make calling this victory "Algerian" as opposed to "FLN" problematic. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 08:20, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Berbers were a primary force within the FLN, Please check the Soummam conference. Public support was also an important factor that helped take the war to the halls of the UN. This was displayed in the massive december 1960 protests. In terms of public support; The FLN had an overwhelming grip to the point where the Algerian anthem had a whole part dedicated for the FLN. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you. This response abates by concerns about the Berbers but still does not solve the problem of this being an FLN victory. This fact about the Algerian anthem is further evidence of an FLN victory as opposed to a broader, undefined Algerian victory; I fail to see why anyone in the MNA would remotely support this rival organization monopolizing space in the national anthem. Given I stand by not voting on this RfC I won't comment further. None of the arguments presented counter the fact that a majority of the sources (by 7 to 5) provided by Skitash refer to an FLN victory, nor do they address the problem of belligerents in the infobox. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 09:05, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 1 (Algerian victory). Repeating my comment in the earlier discussion above: it should be reasonably common sense that a war started for Algerian independence and whose immediate and most significant result was Algerian independence would be summarized as an Algerian victory. The suggestion that it is not a victory because the FLN did not directly defeat the French army in the field is irrelevant for the purposes of a summary: plenty of wars are won or lost because one side decides to withdraw or to accept the other's demands. It would be counter-intuitive and rather WP:EXCEPTIONAL to insist on some editorial stance that these are not "victories" for this reason alone. It is the job of the article itself to explain the various details, including successes and setbacks, regardless of the overall result. The job of the infobox parameter is to help readers understand what the main result of the war was at a glance.
Moreover, there are already cited sources in the article that show WP:RS summarizing the war's result in this manner (as an Algerian victory or French defeat),[19] and it's not hard to find more from a short search, as I mentioned above:[20][21][22][23] R Prazeres (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Matthew James Connelly (2002). A Diplomatic Revolution: Algeria's Fight for Independence and the Origins of the Post-cold War Era. Oxford University Press. pp. 263–277. ISBN 978-0-19-514513-7. The Algerians' victory enabled the French to become free--free from their colonial charges, and free from the United States....... Although France was obviously eager to get out, it had to accept the terms of its defeat.
  2. ^ Vince, Natalya (2020). The Algerian War, The Algerian Revolution. Springer International Publishing. p. 96. ISBN 978-3-030-54264-1. The military strength of the French army might have won the battle (of Algiers) by crushing the ALN, but ultimately, they lost the war.
  3. ^ Robert Malley (20 November 1996). The Call From Algeria: Third Worldism, Revolution, and the Turn to Islam. University of California Press. p. 81. ISBN 978-0-520-91702-6. Then, in 1962, came the FLN's victory in Algeria, a defining moment in the history of the Third Worldism, for the battle had lasted so long, had been so violent, and had been won by a movement so acutely aware of its international dimension.
  4. ^ Ruud van Dijk; William Glenn Gray; Svetlana Savranskaya (13 May 2013). Encyclopedia of the Cold War. Routledge. p. 16. ISBN 978-1-135-92311-2. During this war of independence, Algeria was at the center of world politics. The FLN's victory made the country one of the most prominent in the Third World during the 1960s and 1970s.
  5. ^ George J. Andreopoulos; Harold E. Selesky (1994). The Aftermath of Defeat: Societies, Armed Forces, and the Challenge of Recovery. Yale University Press. p. 79. ISBN 978-0-300-05853-6. Between 1946 and 1962, in the jungles of Indochina and in the desert djebel of Algeria, the French army waged two wars. It lost each of them.
  6. ^ Nicola Cooper (1 January 2001). France in Indochina: Colonial Encounters. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 181. ISBN 978-1-85973-476-6. Indochina is certainly not the open sore that Algeria appears to be in contemporary France. Nonetheless, imperial France fought and lost bloody colonial wars in both Indochina and Algeria.
  7. ^ Bronson Long (2015). No Easy Occupation: French Control of the German Saar, 1944-1957. Boydell & Brewer. p. 40. ISBN 978-1-57113-915-3. France lost its wars in both Indochina and Algeria, while the remainder of its colonial empire largely achieved independence peacefully
  8. ^ Jeffrey Record (2011). Beating Goliath: Why Insurgencies Win. Potomac Books, Inc. p. 14. ISBN 978-1-59797-321-2. During the cold war, serious intellectual examination of the strong succumbing to the weak was provoked by a series of events: the success of the Chinese Communists in 1949, the rapid largely unexpected disintegration of European colonial empires in Asia and Africa, France's violent defeat in Indochina and Algeria, and above all the defeat and humiliation of the United States in Vietnam.
  9. ^ Roger Chickering; Dennis Showalter; Hans van de Ven (27 September 2012). The Cambridge History of War: Volume 4, War and the Modern World. Cambridge University Press. p. 592. ISBN 978-1-316-17592-7. Asymmetric war abjures the idea of ending matters in the open field. Instead, it operates in the longue durée... Its best early example was Algeria's war for independence between 1954 and 1960, when a combination of terror, insurgency, and propaganda brought defeat and revolution to France.
  10. ^ Mack, Andrew (18 July 2011). "Why Big Nations Lose Small Wars: The Politics of Asymmetric Conflict". World Politics. 27 (02): 175–200. doi:10.2307/2009880. ISSN 1086-3338. Retrieved 22 September 2017. The Vietnam and Algerian wars have demonstrated that the overwhelming conventional military superiority of major powers is no guarantee against their defeat in wars against small nations.
  11. ^ Alec G. Hargreaves; Michael J. Heffernan (1993). French and Algerian identities from colonial times to the present: a century of interaction. E. Mellen Press. p. 160. ISBN 978-0-7734-9233-2. The Algerian War was waged on the French side on the principle of an indissoluble union between France and Algeria. France lost the war, and in so doing, this sacred principle suffered a severe blow. It was the committed and more extreme regionalists who learned the lesson of this defeat.
  12. ^ a b Jo McCormack (2010). Collective Memory: France and the Algerian War (1954-1962). Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 1–3. ISBN 978-0-7391-4562-3. The resentment and the bitterness of defeat in the Algerian War continue to feed into racism and to a general ignorance of this period of French history that is inhibiting Algerian French being able to find a home in France. Cite error: The named reference "McCormack2010" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  13. ^ Matthew James Connelly (2002). A Diplomatic Revolution: Algeria's Fight for Independence and the Origins of the Post-cold War Era. Oxford University Press. pp. 263–277. ISBN 978-0-19-514513-7. The Algerians' victory enabled the French to become free--free from their colonial charges, and free from the United States....... Although France was obviously eager to get out, it had to accept the terms of its defeat.
  14. ^ Alistair Horne (9 August 2012). A Savage War of Peace: Algeria 1954-1962. Pan Macmillan. p. 11. ISBN 978-1-4472-3343-5. The war in Algeria (which lasted nearly eight years - almost twice as long as the "Great War" of 1914-18) toppled six French prime ministers and the Fourth Republic itself. It came close to bringing down General de Gaulle and his Fifth Republic and confronted metropolitan France with the threat of civil war. Yet, when defeat led to the cession of this cornerstone of her empire where she had been "chez elle" for 132 years, out of it arose an incomparably greater France than the world had seen for many a generation.
  15. ^ Phillip Chiviges Naylor (December 2000). France and Algeria: A History of Decolonization and Transformation. University Press of Florida. p. 263. ISBN 978-0-8130-3096-8. De Gaulle managed with difficulty to persuade the French that decolonization did not equate with decadence. He prided himself on being wedded to the twentieth century and being able to replace colonialism with cooperation, satisfying essentialist imperatives. Still, this master mythmaker (witness in his manipulation of the image of France's Resistance during the Second World War) could not alter the reality or purge the memory of France's defeat in Algeria.
  16. ^ Robert Malley (20 November 1996). The Call From Algeria: Third Worldism, Revolution, and the Turn to Islam. University of California Press. p. 81. ISBN 978-0-520-91702-6. Then, in 1962, came the FLN's victory in Algeria, a defining moment in the history of the Third Worldism, for the battle had lasted so long, had been so violent, and had been won by a movement so acutely aware of its international dimension.
  17. ^ Ruud van Dijk; William Glenn Gray; Svetlana Savranskaya (13 May 2013). Encyclopedia of the Cold War. Routledge. p. 16. ISBN 1-135-92311-6. During this war of independence, Algeria was at the center of world politics. The FLN's victory made the country one of the most prominent in the Third World during the 1960s and 1970s.
  18. ^ Charles R. Shrader (1 January 1999). The First Helicopter War: Logistics and Mobility in Algeria, 1954-1962. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 231. ISBN 978-0-275-96388-0. Retrieved 15 December 2015. the path to independence was strewn with many obstacles, not all of which the leaders of the FLN were able to overcome. Nevertheless, they succeeded in creating ex nihilo an effective political structure able to suppress internal dissent and gain the support of outside forces. That same newly created political entity also proved itself able to raise, organize, equip, train, and direct military forces capable of posing a significant threat to French control inside Algeria. At the same time it could create a conventional army of imposing presence which, although retained in Tunisia and never fully committed in battle, played an important role in achieving the overall victory.
  19. ^ (Copy of the first citation in the article:)
  20. ^ Black, Jeremy (2014). Introduction to Global Military History: 1775 to the Present Day. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-317-79639-8. The French were also unsuccessful in Algeria, despite committing considerable resources to its retention.
  21. ^ DeFronzo, James (2006). Revolutionary Movements in World History: From 1750 to the Present [3 volumes]. Bloomsbury Publishing USA. p. 39. ISBN 978-1-85109-798-2. [...] As a result, the ranks of the revolutionary army swelled until they constituted a drain on French resources of an unprecedented scale and eventually achieved an Algerian victory.
  22. ^ Harmon, Stephen A. (2016). Terror and Insurgency in the Sahara-Sahel Region: Corruption, Contraband, Jihad and the Mali War of 2012-2013. Routledge. p. 46. ISBN 978-1-317-04606-6. The Algerian victory was a bitter defeat for Charles De Gaulle, who had staked his reputation on France holding on to Algeria despite the otherwise inexorable trend towards decolonization.
  23. ^ Stora, Benjamin (2001). Algeria, 1830-2000: A Short History. Cornell University Press. pp. 102 (see heading). ISBN 978-0-8014-3715-1.
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